INTERVIEW

Ernest Wamba dia Wamba: Alternate Theory on DRC War

War broke out in the eastern part of the Democratic Republic of Congo again in August, and since then 250,000 people have been displaced.

In an e-mail interview with our correspondent, Ernest Wamba dia Wamba -- an academic and political theorist with unique insight and experience into the conflict in Congo as both the former leader of the Rally for Congolese Democracy during the Second Congo War (1998-2003) and as senator in the DRC's parliament -- examines the forces at work in the current crisis.

IPS: Ethnicity is often put forward as the key factor in the conflict in this region. You have a different view: What is the conflict really about?

Ernest Wamba dia Wamba: The conflict is about power sharing and access to resources in the context of a weak and discriminatory state. The question of resources draws in outside forces. Besides resources, unresolved issues from the Rwandese genocide -- the presence in the DRC of the Forces Démocratiques de la Libération du Rwanda [a rebel group operating in Kivu, made up principally of former Rwandan Army and militia responsible for the 1994 genocide] and the evidence of their alliance with the Kinshasa regime -- draws in Rwanda, at least indirectly.

Strictly speaking, ethnicity or tribalism is a particular mode of functioning of a state -- the colonial one that organized conquered or colonized people administratively by dividing them into tribes.

When post-colonial states did not successfully solve the national question by consciously transforming the colonial state, they remained discriminatory states, in some respects continuing to function as a colonial state. It is only if ethnic differences become the basis of discrimination that they turn into ethnic conflicts. Right now, our state still treats communities differently; even the formation of the government reflects those differences.

IPS: Many of DRC's neighbors have been involved in the conflict militarily at one time or another -- at the moment, Rwanda is accused of involvement and Angolan troops are again on the way. What role do DRC's neighbors play in the conflict?

EW: Most of them do not really want a strong DRC, and the DRC has not been able so far to develop a posture of good neighborliness with its neighbors. [Rwanda and other] neighboring states that have suffered due to the destabilization by Mobutu's gendarme regime want the DRC to remain weak. And the Kinshasa government's contracts with China makes the West less inclined to support the regime, as they would have done with Mobutu.

All this is due to the fact the DRC is unable to exercise its authority around at her borders. The DRC hardly has a real national army or a real public administration and is thus unable to defend her territorial integrity.

Corruption, fueled by the fact that even top leaders are involved in business interests, makes it difficult for institutions to function well and urgently correct those shortcomings.

Funds and materials sent to the war front are often diverted. Food meant for the army has been found being sold in stores in Kisangani, for example. Food intended for the war front! The African Union should perhaps help in finding a neutral team to strengthen the integration and restructuring of the FARDC.

IPS: In your view, what role is there for these (and other African governments) in finding a lasting peace?

EW: As long as they operate within what we can call a U.N. of conception of conflict resolution, where peace is seen as coming from outside, a conception of peace as 'colonial pacification,' no durable solution will be found.

Since the 1960s, at the end of each war in the DRC, peace agreements have failed to honestly take up the issue of national reconciliation. Too often, the solution has been based on power sharing favoring the strongest element and sometimes ignoring the defeated element, i.e. the divisions among the people are not dealt with and some continue to feel excluded, making it difficult for the state to function as a state for all people.

It is crucial that this time a real dialogue takes place and a reconciliation is carried out. Military solutions tend to be temporary, each party only waiting for the shift in the balance of forces.

In the long run, the DRC has to be rebuilt. Some way has to be found to organize a real army and a real administration. Unless the people are involved in the process, the outcome is likely to be a state that is repressive.

The consolidation of democratic institutions may help; so far, multipartyism has tended to be more divisive. Neoliberalism has not made it easier for weak states to truly control their resources. The world economy of crime easily links up with corrupt structures to loot the resources and marginalize and impoverish people.

IPS: Who are the relevant parties to negotiate a better future for the country?

EW: Within the National Assembly and the Senate, they are people who are agitating for direct negotiations with Nkunda. Proposals have been made in that direction. The minister of foreign affairs has been meeting with Rwandese, I don't know how much has been achieved.

Since the issue should be to achieve a long lasting settlement, the more the institutions are involved the better. During the time of the secessions [of Katanga and South Kasai in 1963], President Kasa-Vubu did meet with the leaders of the secessions.

It would be good that a high level meeting take place so that the implementation of agreements could be guaranteed. The government should consult with respected personalities all across the country to get a sense of what is likely to move us toward a better future.

Archbishop Desmond Tutu:
"We Must Rethink the International Economic System"

By Bankole Thompson / IPS

Archbishop Desmond Tutu is South Africa's first black Anglican bishop. An elder statesman whose moral voice and advocacy against the racist apartheid regime in South Africa first brought him to the world stage in the 1980s, Tutu received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1984.

Today he is an international peace negotiator, a man sought after by world leaders and governments for his counsel, and a teacher of peace, justice and non-violence on the campuses of major colleges and universities around the world. 

Correspondent Bankole Thompson had a one-on-one interview with the man Nelson Mandela trusted with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to bring racial healing to South Africa. Tutu was in Michigan Wednesday to receive the University of Michigan's Wallenberg Medal in Ann Arbor for his humanitarian work. 

Tutu stated that the current global financial crisis shows something is wrong with the "free market" system and called for a review of the fundamentals of capitalism. He said African governments should form cartels to protect their institutions if Western nations are protecting their own financial companies, lamented that Africa's political and religious leadership failed Zimbabweans, and hailed the prospect of a Barack Obama presidency in the U.S. 

Q: How do you think the global financial crisis will affect the Millennium Development Goals of the U.N.? 

DT: Of course, if there is no money from the rich countries then it is going to be very difficult for the developing countries to reach those goals. But I would hope people would look more carefully at the international economic system, because that is in many ways at the bottom of this. Or you could say they have to look at the fundamental principles of capitalism, because I think capitalism tends to encourage some of the less noble aspects of our characters. 

Q: Western nations are fighting the financial crisis through governments and central bank interventions. But in Africa, the European Union keeps prescribing more trade liberalization and less government intervention. Is there a willingness on the part of African governments to resist such policies? 

DT: We are meant to live in a community of interdependence. If we continue to treat others as outsiders -- and as you see, when they are outsiders, they will tend to get the thin end of the stick -- then we will be in trouble. I hope that although we will be speaking from a position of weakness, we should be saying, 'No, we want a fundamental revamp of the economic system." 

Because they say 'liberalize, don't put up trade barriers.' But what do they do? In the European Union they have all of these massive agricultural subsidies where they pay two dollars a day for every cow. There are people in the world, millions of people who live on less than that, and they say nothing of their kind of regulation that puts barriers, that makes it difficult for the goods from developing countries to compete fairly in their markets. But now I think they are going to be finding it [uneasy] to say central governments must not intervene. They've intervened massively and they've said they have 'free enterprise'. I don't know how 'free' enterprise really is. 

Q: The Economic Partnership Agreements (EPA) being negotiated between Africa and Europe are largely viewed as undermining Africa's potential for growth and development. Does Africa have a responsibility to put in place safeguards when it enters such international agreements? 

DT: I think they have now a far better possibility of doing that. We have to admit that to some extent we are to blame in the sense that we have allowed people [to lead] who were engaging in massive corruption, people who were looking out for themselves and were not servants of the people. Look at what happened to Zaire [now the Democratic Republic of Congo], for instance, a very rich country but we know that a lot of its wealth was stashed in Swiss bank accounts and things of that kind. And so we've also got to say to our leaders 'you are going to be accountable to your people and you are not going to use the positions that you have for self enrichment, for self aggrandizement, you are there for the sake of the people.' 

Q: African governments have been criticized for not taking a hard stance against Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe. The political settlement there is very fragile. What do you suggest? 

DT: I said right at the beginning that the way we were behaving as leaders made me want to hang my head in shame. And I was speaking not just of the political leaders, because I thought that religious leaders and others needed to point out that we can't look on and see so many of our people suffering so grievously just in order to retain in power someone who certainly had an outstanding record as a liberation fighter and for maybe the first 10 years of freedom in Zimbabwe under oath, when we don't think about the massacres. He had helped to make Zimbabwe a bread basket and now it's awful when you think of what happened. I would hope that they would become more vocal. 

Q: On the eve of African independence, most companies created by African leaders were sold to multinational corporations. With the current financial crisis, Western nations are protecting their own companies. French President Nicolas Sarkozy told the European Parliament last week to create sovereign wealth funds to protect their companies from foreign "predators". What is Africa's lesson? 

DT: Well I hope that our leaders will have learned and that they ought to form...maybe cartels. Let them join forces and say 'we refuse to be pushed around any longer'. Many of our countries still have the resources that the developed world requires. And we ought to be able to say 'look, we want to have a fairer deal than we have had up to now'. 

Q: What are the implications for Africa for a Barack Obama presidency? 

DT: I just want to say I pray that the American voters do the right thing. It is going to be, I believe, a fantastic thing for people of color around the world. But when you saw how he was received in Germany you realize that it is not just for people of color, it is going to be a new epoch. A new era will dawn when Obama enters the White House. 

People sometimes speak about anti-Americanism abroad. There is not in my experience any anti-Americanism. There certainly is resentment in most parts of the world [toward] an arrogant unilateral America that is seen as a big bully boy refusing to sign Kyoto Protocols when the rest of the world is saying climate change is a very real threat to the continuous existence of human kind -- when most of the world signed their own statutes establishing the International Criminal Court and the United States says we'll jump in the lake, and goes and does what many people have said should not happen -- the invasion of Iraq -- which has become such a horrendous disaster. 

And one hopes that the new administration would be one that would say 'we will rid America of the awful mark of Guantanamo Bay, that we will not be a country that makes it possible for things like Abu Ghraib to happen.' 

Q: South Africa has been in the news a lot lately and you've been very critical of former president Thabo Mbeki. What do you expect out of the new transition? 

DT: One of the remarkable things has been the fact that change happened with no bloodshed or whatever. It is quite unusual for a president in our part of the world, whose term has not ended, to step down as Thabo Mbeki did. [Normally] they invoke the military and there is usually a great deal of bloodshed. So the transition has taken place. 

But I have to say that our new president is an attractive person. He is a modest man, personable and some of the changes that they have made are very important as in the health ministry -- that we should get a new health minister who talks sense about AIDS and so on. There are many pluses. The concern about the transition is obviously with regard to Jacob Zuma. We don't know whether the national prosecuting authority will again indict him and that could cause some turmoil. 

Q: After the African National Congress (ANC) rose to the pinnacle of power, some argue that there has been a steady yearning by South Africa's poor black majority to achieve economic equality. But the problem, critics say, is that the ANC leadership is disconnected from the grassroots. What do you think? 

DT: A very disturbing thing has been the gap between the rich and the poor widening. And I have said that people are going to be resentful and say 'where is this peace dividend?' If you go to South Africa one of the first things that strikes you -- when you are flying to Cape Town -- you see the shacks. 

A case could be made for a special Marshall Plan. Europe got back on its feet after World War II because Europe got this helping hand of the Marshall Plan. You have a government that has to deal with the legacy of apartheid, but also has to deal with contemporary demands and needs and expectations of its people. And that's tough. 

I keep having to say to people 'remember though we've been free for only 14 years'. America became free in the 1700s and it is still dealing with inequities. The levels of poverty here [in America] can be quite shocking. So we say give us time because one of the amazing things is that South Africa should have the stability that it has. That is still amazing. You see headlines 'vicious race riots' and you think that is South Africa. And you read on, you find it is Manchester, England. 

Face To Face With Barack Obama

by Bankole Thompson/IPS / Special to The Times

Before the November 04 U.S. elections, President-elect and then the Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama sat down with our IPS correspondent Bankole Thompson on behalf of The African Times recently for a one-on-one interview in Grand Rapids, Michigan, where over 15,000 enthusiastic Obama supporters turned out to hear his message of change at downtown's Calder Plaza.

As the presidential campaign enters the final four weeks, and with recent national polls showing that the Illinois senator is widening his lead with Republican opponent John McCain, the interview centered on hot-button foreign policy issues in light of the 700-billion-dollar Wall Street bailout. 

Obama answered questions ranging from what U.S. relations would be like with Pakistan if he wins the White House, to how Washington could re-engage with Latin America as China's influence also grows in that part of the world, cutting the massive subsidies for big oil companies like ExxonMobil, and increasing U.S. foreign aid to bolster the floundering U.N. Millennium Development Goals (MDGs). 

Q: There are supposed to be built-in-protections for the middle class and poor in the bailout of Wall Street. How would a Barack Obama administration ensure that those protections are maintained? 

BO: What I've done is written into the legislation, that there is going to be an independent oversight board to monitor what the Treasury is doing. We have legislation that says that the money from the sale of assets that are purchased all goes back into reducing the national debt so that taxpayers are getting their money back. 

But it's going to require that the next administration is diligent about these protections and it's going to be very important that the next administration does everything it can to strengthen the underlying housing market and to prevent the foreclosures that have been devastating in so many communities, particularly in the African American and Hispanic communities. 

Q: You talk about oil companies a lot. What about the 20 to 40 billion dollars they get from the U.S. government in subsidies every year? Under an Obama administration, would that be eliminated or cut to invest in alternative energy? 

BO: Well, I think there is no doubt that we should not be giving them tax breaks when they are making 12 billion dollars a quarter. You've had three consecutive quarters now where ExxonMobil made almost 12 billion dollars a quarter and the notion that they need subsidies makes no sense. And so we would, I think, be trying as part of a comprehensive energy plan to make sure that those subsidies are shifted to alternative fuels like solar and wind, biodiesel that can be so important to our long-term energy future. 

Q: Would the United States under an Obama administration increase foreign aid given the importance of achieving the U.N. Millennium Development Goals to ease global poverty? 

BO: Well, I have said that I think it is important for us to increase foreign aid. Now I have to say that my plans were structured prior to this recent financial crisis. So we are going to have to see what is possible in next year's budget. I can make an assurance that we will not cut foreign aid, that we will increase it. We may not be able to increase it as quickly or by as much that I wanted to do when I put my plans together last year. 

Q: You've said China is engaged with South America and the United States is absent. What would your administration do? 

BO: Well, I think it is a matter of reaching out to these countries and asking, how can we not only work with them around critical issues like anti-drug efforts, cracking down on criminal gangs; I think we also have to be thinking, how do we help these countries that still have millions of poor people in them? Provide job opportunities and growth opportunities. And part of that is trade structured not just for corporations but for workers. Part of it is basic infrastructure, public health infrastructure, educational infrastructure. That makes a huge difference. 

Q: Switching quickly to labor. You've talked about the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) and that there will be some modifications when your administration takes over. What about the Central American Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA)? 

BO: I think any of our trade agreements has to have strong labor provisions, strong environmental protections and we have to enforce it. We have not been good at enforcing our agreements. That's something that is going to change in my administration. 

Q: How do you intend to address the repercussions of the Wall Street bailout on Mexico's economy, since the two economies are tied together? 

BO: Well, I think it's not just Mexico. The entire world economy is now tied together. Europe is now seeing huge problems similar to what we've been seeing on Wall Street. So that's why it is important for us to coordinate with the G-20 countries [a bloc of developing nations] to do everything we can to make sure that when we have regulations in place here, that they are mirrored overseas that there is just one system of rules that all of global capital has to play by. 

Q: Pakistan has been in the news a lot, and it came up in your Sep. 26 debate on foreign policy. Under your administration, what would the relationship be between Washington and Pakistan, in light of the fact that a lot of U.S. tax dollars are going there? 

BO: Well, Pakistan is a difficult problem. You've got a fragile democracy after years of military rule. These hills and mountains of Pakistan where the Taliban and al Qaeda have made base camps are very difficult to access. I think Pakistanis are worried that if they go after them too hard that they would see more of the bombings like they saw at the Marriott Hotel. 

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